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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:12 am 
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Posts: 369
Granite Knolls in particular has some great, smooth and flowy stuff. The opportunity in there for more is really good too. We need to talk about this some more on Saturday and I'll tell you all what I've been discussing with the powers that be.


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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:27 am 
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Location: Mount Kisco
gravitylover wrote:
Granite Knolls in particular has some great, smooth and flowy stuff. The opportunity in there for more is really good too. We need to talk about this some more on Saturday and I'll tell you all what I've been discussing with the powers that be.


Tim, you got powers? Come on, can't be. I spoke with Andrea and she said "he's got none!" :)

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 Post subject: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:07 am 
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Location: Killington, VT
I am not saying that Westchester should be turned into a massive network such as Killington or Kingdom. I'm just using those areas as examples to show what a couple of the above posts stated.

The mentality of, "I learned this way and so should you." And "if you want beginner trails then go ride the aqueduct." Is going to be the beginning of the end of the sport as we know it.
If you mountain bike to be as far away from civilization as possible and just couldn't be bothered with the politics of it or anyone else on "your trails" then move! I think a place like Arizona or Colorado would be much better for you.

You guys are lucky enough in Westchester to be as close as you are to NYC but also have some world class trails within 30 minutes of your house. That's unique!

I think that we can use the business plans and structures set forth by resorts like Killington and Kingdom to help expand the Westchester trail network into something that will encourage wives, kids, and most importantly new riders to get into the sport. This does not mean millions of dollars!

This will help the parks dept. and the local bike shops flourish. Do you know what percentage of bike shop revenue comes from $5k+ bikes vs entry level road and mountain bikes?

In Killington we are starting trail networks from scratch. I can assure you that the terrain is just as rocky and roots as Westchester. VT is about sustainability though. To build a trail here and get approval from the national forest service it costs us on average about $45k per mile! We have to hire a professional trail builder, archeologists, engineers, even a botanist! In Westchester, you already have the trail systems in place. It's also much easier in Westchester to get approval for trail building and modifications than it is in VT.




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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Chappaqua
Lipster94 wrote:
I am not saying that Westchester should be turned into a massive network such as Killington or Kingdom. I'm just using those areas as examples to show what a couple of the above posts stated.

The mentality of, "I learned this way and so should you." And "if you want beginner trails then go ride the aqueduct." Is going to be the beginning of the end of the sport as we know it.
If you mountain bike to be as far away from civilization as possible and just couldn't be bothered with the politics of it or anyone else on "your trails" then move! I think a place like Arizona or Colorado would be much better for you.

You guys are lucky enough in Westchester to be as close as you are to NYC but also have some world class trails within 30 minutes of your house. That's unique!

I think that we can use the business plans and structures set forth by resorts like Killington and Kingdom to help expand the Westchester trail network into something that will encourage wives, kids, and most importantly new riders to get into the sport. This does not mean millions of dollars!

This will help the parks dept. and the local bike shops flourish. Do you know what percentage of bike shop revenue comes from $5k+ bikes vs entry level road and mountain bikes?

In Killington we are starting trail networks from scratch. I can assure you that the terrain is just as rocky and roots as Westchester. VT is about sustainability though. To build a trail here and get approval from the national forest service it costs us on average about $45k per mile! We have to hire a professional trail builder, archeologists, engineers, even a botanist! In Westchester, you already have the trail systems in place. It's also much easier in Westchester to get approval for trail building and modifications than it is in VT.




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I'm going to say it again, because you don't seem to understand. There is basically no place left in Westchester to build trails, that's just the way it is.

$45,000 per mile to build a trail? Who pays for that? Nobody around here is going to put up that kind of money. Yes, we have some nice parks with mountain bike trails, but natural trails are the only kind that are allowed. No features of any kind, not even berms are actually allowed. Look at it from the county's perspective: Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see some new parks with some flowy trails arouind here, but it's just not practical.


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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:40 pm 
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Posts: 530
Ti Guy wrote:
Lipster94 wrote:
I am not saying that Westchester should be turned into a massive network such as Killington or Kingdom. I'm just using those areas as examples to show what a couple of the above posts stated.

The mentality of, "I learned this way and so should you." And "if you want beginner trails then go ride the aqueduct." Is going to be the beginning of the end of the sport as we know it.
If you mountain bike to be as far away from civilization as possible and just couldn't be bothered with the politics of it or anyone else on "your trails" then move! I think a place like Arizona or Colorado would be much better for you.

You guys are lucky enough in Westchester to be as close as you are to NYC but also have some world class trails within 30 minutes of your house. That's unique!

I think that we can use the business plans and structures set forth by resorts like Killington and Kingdom to help expand the Westchester trail network into something that will encourage wives, kids, and most importantly new riders to get into the sport. This does not mean millions of dollars!

This will help the parks dept. and the local bike shops flourish. Do you know what percentage of bike shop revenue comes from $5k+ bikes vs entry level road and mountain bikes?

In Killington we are starting trail networks from scratch. I can assure you that the terrain is just as rocky and roots as Westchester. VT is about sustainability though. To build a trail here and get approval from the national forest service it costs us on average about $45k per mile! We have to hire a professional trail builder, archeologists, engineers, even a botanist! In Westchester, you already have the trail systems in place. It's also much easier in Westchester to get approval for trail building and modifications than it is in VT.




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I'm going to say it again, because you don't seem to understand. There is basically no place left in Westchester to build trails, that's just the way it is.

(I wish Rockefeller would give up some of that action.) ...The state also has Trump's park off the Taconic that has potential.


$45,000 per mile to build a trail? Who pays for that?

(Apparently the people of Vermont) http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-a ... 24100.html

Nobody around here is going to put up that kind of money. Yes, we have some nice parks with mountain bike trails, but natural trails are the only kind that are allowed. No features of any kind, not even berms are actually allowed. Look at it from the county's perspective: Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see some new parks with some flowy trails arouind here, but it's just not practical.


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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:15 pm
Posts: 244
Lifeofloon wrote:
Ok. I think this attitude of, I learned this way so everyone should, is a bit selfish and short sighted. Some of us had a biking background as children that made our progression that much easier. Some of us just have more free time due to our career choices to to put into practice and progressing. For the middle aged person with no childhood experience and who only has one day a week to ride the majority of the Westchester trails I've ridden are very tough and discouraging. For example my wife didn't grow up riding mountain bikes and she is lucky get out a handful of times a season. Everywhere in Westchester except for a select few trails discourage her and make riding no fun.

...

Not everyone who wants to ride mountain bikes wants to ride the technically demanding trails that are so abundant in Westchester. Some people want to just get out in nature riding a bike. Telling those people, tough luck, go ride the aquaduct trail is condescending and discouraging.


I agree with this 100%

I'm not defending the rock-movers in any way. The bastards. Them and the mud riders - find and punish them both.

And I'm not suggesting there's any way to create a massive trail system for beginners. It would be too expensive.

But the reality is that mountain biking in Westchester is pretty f-ing hard. There are basically no trails for beginners (sorry the pink loop is just not that exciting). And the attitude of "if you don't like to jump rocks like we do then f*ck off, your kind is not welcome here." is disturbing and disappointing.

There's a huge gap between (a) building a giant Vermont-like flow trail system, and (b) being open to the idea that a few go-rounds on some trails would make them accessible to less skilled riders, and that's a good thing for the community and the sport of mountain biking.

I'm really surprised the latter incites such outrage. Make sure the go-round doesn't mess up the original flow, and that it's enough of a detour that it can't be exploited to spoil your precious strava time, and everyone wins.


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 Post subject: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Killington, VT
Ti Guy wrote:
Lipster94 wrote:
I am not saying that Westchester should be turned into a massive network such as Killington or Kingdom. I'm just using those areas as examples to show what a couple of the above posts stated.

The mentality of, "I learned this way and so should you." And "if you want beginner trails then go ride the aqueduct." Is going to be the beginning of the end of the sport as we know it.
If you mountain bike to be as far away from civilization as possible and just couldn't be bothered with the politics of it or anyone else on "your trails" then move! I think a place like Arizona or Colorado would be much better for you.

You guys are lucky enough in Westchester to be as close as you are to NYC but also have some world class trails within 30 minutes of your house. That's unique!

I think that we can use the business plans and structures set forth by resorts like Killington and Kingdom to help expand the Westchester trail network into something that will encourage wives, kids, and most importantly new riders to get into the sport. This does not mean millions of dollars!

This will help the parks dept. and the local bike shops flourish. Do you know what percentage of bike shop revenue comes from $5k+ bikes vs entry level road and mountain bikes?

In Killington we are starting trail networks from scratch. I can assure you that the terrain is just as rocky and roots as Westchester. VT is about sustainability though. To build a trail here and get approval from the national forest service it costs us on average about $45k per mile! We have to hire a professional trail builder, archeologists, engineers, even a botanist! In Westchester, you already have the trail systems in place. It's also much easier in Westchester to get approval for trail building and modifications than it is in VT.




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I'm going to say it again, because you don't seem to understand. There is basically no place left in Westchester to build trails, that's just the way it is.

$45,000 per mile to build a trail? Who pays for that? Nobody around here is going to put up that kind of money. Yes, we have some nice parks with mountain bike trails, but natural trails are the only kind that are allowed. No features of any kind, not even berms are actually allowed. Look at it from the county's perspective: Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see some new parks with some flowy trails arouind here, but it's just not practical.



Calm down dude.

Like I mentioned before, if it isn't sustainable, it won't happen up here.

And please don't tell me that it's a matter of money. Do you know what the difference in per capita income is between Killington, VT and Pleasantville, NY?


And what are you calling natural?? There's almost nothing natural about GH or Blue. YOU just don't realize the man hours that have been put in to these places to get them to where they are. The difference in workforce to get those trails to what they are, and to build a park like Pine Hill Park in Rutland, VT isn't that different. The difference is that the people actually building the trails up here are educated and experienced. It isn't a hobby for them. Their are companies up here (Like Sinuosity) whose full time job is to build sustainable mountain bike trails.

The most important thing here IMO is education. For both the people, riders, parks dept. and trail builders!

It's not that berms are illegal... When built PROPERLY they do not harm the forest whatsoever! It's just that nobody who is actually picking up a shovel around there is properly trained to build them right.

The mentality, "Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems." Is absolutely NOT the counties perspective. This is just a introverted grouch. Not a professional parks dept. views looking at mtn. bikers as an opportunity to raise $ and awareness. More people means more opportunity for growth! Westchester Parks is a business. If a business isn't growing then it is just stagnant. Or even worse, going out of business...
If the parks dept. didn't want people on bikes in those woods, then trust me, you wouldn't be riding your bike in those woods anymore!


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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:22 pm 
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Posts: 3285
Location: Mount Kisco
Lipster94 wrote:
"Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems." Is absolutely NOT the counties perspective. This is just a introverted grouch. Not a professional parks dept. views looking at mtn. bikers as an opportunity to raise $ and awareness."


The Westchester County Parks department view is one of decreasing funds and resources. They rely on the WMBA to do the hands-on trail related work that they cannot, to be the county's eyes and ears in the parks and to maintain a framework and organization to support Mountain Biking in the county. Westchester homeowners (I am one) view their taxes as way too high as it is already for what we see as a decreasing return. We pay through the nose every year only to drive on poor quality roads, decreasing county services and decreasing public school programs. There is no way that taxpayers are going to shell out any money specifically for the creation of professionally built Mountain Bike trails ("we have the North County Trailway, ride in the woods....that's crazy"). While many taxpayers' profile can be considered "outdoors oriented" they would rather spend money elsewhere (e.g. mall, restaurants/bars) than for something their exorbitant property taxes should cover.

So, that leaves us with trails in the county being designed and built under the guidance of the WMBA by volunteer manpower. Anyone who wants to see a new trail built can approach the WMBA with an idea, walk the proposed route with us and discuss the time that they will devote to getting it done. This process has yielded the trails we currently have.

Want something else built? We'd love to get dirty with you and work on Those Fabulous Hills of Westchester.

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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Chappaqua
Lipster94 wrote:
Ti Guy wrote:
Lipster94 wrote:
I am not saying that Westchester should be turned into a massive network such as Killington or Kingdom. I'm just using those areas as examples to show what a couple of the above posts stated.

The mentality of, "I learned this way and so should you." And "if you want beginner trails then go ride the aqueduct." Is going to be the beginning of the end of the sport as we know it.
If you mountain bike to be as far away from civilization as possible and just couldn't be bothered with the politics of it or anyone else on "your trails" then move! I think a place like Arizona or Colorado would be much better for you.

You guys are lucky enough in Westchester to be as close as you are to NYC but also have some world class trails within 30 minutes of your house. That's unique!

I think that we can use the business plans and structures set forth by resorts like Killington and Kingdom to help expand the Westchester trail network into something that will encourage wives, kids, and most importantly new riders to get into the sport. This does not mean millions of dollars!

This will help the parks dept. and the local bike shops flourish. Do you know what percentage of bike shop revenue comes from $5k+ bikes vs entry level road and mountain bikes?

In Killington we are starting trail networks from scratch. I can assure you that the terrain is just as rocky and roots as Westchester. VT is about sustainability though. To build a trail here and get approval from the national forest service it costs us on average about $45k per mile! We have to hire a professional trail builder, archeologists, engineers, even a botanist! In Westchester, you already have the trail systems in place. It's also much easier in Westchester to get approval for trail building and modifications than it is in VT.




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I'm going to say it again, because you don't seem to understand. There is basically no place left in Westchester to build trails, that's just the way it is.

$45,000 per mile to build a trail? Who pays for that? Nobody around here is going to put up that kind of money. Yes, we have some nice parks with mountain bike trails, but natural trails are the only kind that are allowed. No features of any kind, not even berms are actually allowed. Look at it from the county's perspective: Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see some new parks with some flowy trails arouind here, but it's just not practical.



Calm down dude.

Like I mentioned before, if it isn't sustainable, it won't happen up here.

And please don't tell me that it's a matter of money. Do you know what the difference in per capita income is between Killington, VT and Pleasantville, NY?


And what are you calling natural?? There's almost nothing natural about GH or Blue. YOU just don't realize the man hours that have been put in to these places to get them to where they are. The difference in workforce to get those trails to what they are, and to build a park like Pine Hill Park in Rutland, VT isn't that different. The difference is that the people actually building the trails up here are educated and experienced. It isn't a hobby for them. Their are companies up here (Like Sinuosity) whose full time job is to build sustainable mountain bike trails.

The most important thing here IMO is education. For both the people, riders, parks dept. and trail builders!

It's not that berms are illegal... When built PROPERLY they do not harm the forest whatsoever! It's just that nobody who is actually picking up a shovel around there is properly trained to build them right.

The mentality, "Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems." Is absolutely NOT the counties perspective. This is just a introverted grouch. Not a professional parks dept. views looking at mtn. bikers as an opportunity to raise $ and awareness. More people means more opportunity for growth! Westchester Parks is a business. If a business isn't growing then it is just stagnant. Or even worse, going out of business...
If the parks dept. didn't want people on bikes in those woods, then trust me, you wouldn't be riding your bike in those woods anymore!


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I am quite calm, but you are still not understanding. There is a whole lot of misinformation in your post.

All the trails around here are certainly what I consider 'natural'. Meaning using and embracing the natural features that already exist in the woods, and altering things the least amount possible. I have ridden at Pine Hill a couple of times, and I would most certainly NOT consider those trails 'natural', pretty much the opposite. The amount of work and 'man hours' to build those trails are completely different than GH or BM. At Pine Hill, there was massive amounts of dirt and rock moving, bridge building, and other features. Much of it done by mechanized equipment I'm sure. Those companies that build trails, they usually want to get paid. That's not the way it happens around here. All of the trails around here are hand build by a couple of volunteers with shovels, rakes, saws etc. They cost exactly $0 per mile to build.

And yes, I believe berms are actually illegal around here. It has nothing to do with harming the forest. And now you're picking on the trailbuilders around here?

And no, the Westchester Parks Department is not a business, it's a government agency. With an EXTREMELY limited budget. I think they put up with mountain bikers mostly because of all of the volunteer work that we do keeping the parks in good shape. There is no growth potential.

If you did a survey of Westchester County residents concerning mountain biking in our parks, 95% would want bikes out of the parks, and 99% would not want to pay any money for trail building or maintenance.

Again, I would love to have some easier flowy trails around to take my kids and wife on.

How about this: do some hiking around all of the local parks and come up with a place and plan for an easier trail that won't require thousands of man hours or heavy equipment to build. Make a proposal if it's feasible, get the process started. I would be more than happy to spend time working on it, as would others I'm sure.

Mark


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 Post subject: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Posts: 264
Location: Killington, VT
All of the trails in the Rutland/Killington/Pittsfield area have been built by the Killington Mountain Bike Club. There has been no help or $ given to or from the local parks dept. or the national forest service.
Killington Mountain Bike Club is an established IMBA chapter and has professionally trained trail builders who take the initiative to build and maintain these trails all on their own.
KMBC was also solely responsible for raising the funds to establish our contract with Sinuosity to build the first 13 miles of XC trails located across the street from my store.

This isn't an issue of money or complaining about what your tax dollars do or don't do for you. This is a matter of the people. The people is what makes this work as well as it does up here.

In my experience, alot of the trails in Blue have been built by private parties and then grandfathered in to the park. No pre-approvals or anything.


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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Killington, VT
Ti Guy wrote:
Lipster94 wrote:
Ti Guy wrote:
Lipster94 wrote:
I am not saying that Westchester should be turned into a massive network such as Killington or Kingdom. I'm just using those areas as examples to show what a couple of the above posts stated.

The mentality of, "I learned this way and so should you." And "if you want beginner trails then go ride the aqueduct." Is going to be the beginning of the end of the sport as we know it.
If you mountain bike to be as far away from civilization as possible and just couldn't be bothered with the politics of it or anyone else on "your trails" then move! I think a place like Arizona or Colorado would be much better for you.

You guys are lucky enough in Westchester to be as close as you are to NYC but also have some world class trails within 30 minutes of your house. That's unique!

I think that we can use the business plans and structures set forth by resorts like Killington and Kingdom to help expand the Westchester trail network into something that will encourage wives, kids, and most importantly new riders to get into the sport. This does not mean millions of dollars!

This will help the parks dept. and the local bike shops flourish. Do you know what percentage of bike shop revenue comes from $5k+ bikes vs entry level road and mountain bikes?

In Killington we are starting trail networks from scratch. I can assure you that the terrain is just as rocky and roots as Westchester. VT is about sustainability though. To build a trail here and get approval from the national forest service it costs us on average about $45k per mile! We have to hire a professional trail builder, archeologists, engineers, even a botanist! In Westchester, you already have the trail systems in place. It's also much easier in Westchester to get approval for trail building and modifications than it is in VT.




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I'm going to say it again, because you don't seem to understand. There is basically no place left in Westchester to build trails, that's just the way it is.

$45,000 per mile to build a trail? Who pays for that? Nobody around here is going to put up that kind of money. Yes, we have some nice parks with mountain bike trails, but natural trails are the only kind that are allowed. No features of any kind, not even berms are actually allowed. Look at it from the county's perspective: Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see some new parks with some flowy trails arouind here, but it's just not practical.



Calm down dude.

Like I mentioned before, if it isn't sustainable, it won't happen up here.

And please don't tell me that it's a matter of money. Do you know what the difference in per capita income is between Killington, VT and Pleasantville, NY?


And what are you calling natural?? There's almost nothing natural about GH or Blue. YOU just don't realize the man hours that have been put in to these places to get them to where they are. The difference in workforce to get those trails to what they are, and to build a park like Pine Hill Park in Rutland, VT isn't that different. The difference is that the people actually building the trails up here are educated and experienced. It isn't a hobby for them. Their are companies up here (Like Sinuosity) whose full time job is to build sustainable mountain bike trails.

The most important thing here IMO is education. For both the people, riders, parks dept. and trail builders!

It's not that berms are illegal... When built PROPERLY they do not harm the forest whatsoever! It's just that nobody who is actually picking up a shovel around there is properly trained to build them right.

The mentality, "Why would they spend more money to make trails faster and attract more riders, that would just result in more user conflicts and problems." Is absolutely NOT the counties perspective. This is just a introverted grouch. Not a professional parks dept. views looking at mtn. bikers as an opportunity to raise $ and awareness. More people means more opportunity for growth! Westchester Parks is a business. If a business isn't growing then it is just stagnant. Or even worse, going out of business...
If the parks dept. didn't want people on bikes in those woods, then trust me, you wouldn't be riding your bike in those woods anymore!


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I am quite calm, but you are still not understanding. There is a whole lot of misinformation in your post.

All the trails around here are certainly what I consider 'natural'. Meaning using and embracing the natural features that already exist in the woods, and altering things the least amount possible. I have ridden at Pine Hill a couple of times, and I would most certainly NOT consider those trails 'natural', pretty much the opposite. The amount of work and 'man hours' to build those trails are completely different than GH or BM. At Pine Hill, there was massive amounts of dirt and rock moving, bridge building, and other features. Much of it done by mechanized equipment I'm sure. Those companies that build trails, they usually want to get paid. That's not the way it happens around here. All of the trails around here are hand build by a couple of volunteers with shovels, rakes, saws etc. They cost exactly $0 per mile to build.

And yes, I believe berms are actually illegal around here. It has nothing to do with harming the forest. And now you're picking on the trailbuilders around here?

And no, the Westchester Parks Department is not a business, it's a government agency. With an EXTREMELY limited budget. I think they put up with mountain bikers mostly because of all of the volunteer work that we do keeping the parks in good shape. There is no growth potential.

If you did a survey of Westchester County residents concerning mountain biking in our parks, 95% would want bikes out of the parks, and 99% would not want to pay any money for trail building or maintenance.

Again, I would love to have some easier flowy trails around to take my kids and wife on.

How about this: do some hiking around all of the local parks and come up with a place and plan for an easier trail that won't require thousands of man hours or heavy equipment to build. Make a proposal if it's feasible, get the process started. I would be more than happy to spend time working on it, as would others I'm sure.

Mark


I think you are mistaking things.
The total man hours put into Pine Hill Park (per mile) vs. Blue Mtn. isnt that different. In Blue, the work is spread out and done when people feel like it. In Pine Hill, it is organized and done on weekly trail days. Their are set goals and teams designated who are specialized in certain trail building techniques.
Again, it goes back to the people.

And you are soooo 1000% wrong about berms being illegal in Westchester county. AGAIN, its the people! Digging a hole and packing the dirt into the shape of a turn is not how you build a berm. Laying logs and rocks down and covering them in the shape of a turn is not how you build a berm... This is how most of the berms are built in Blue and GH and this is why i would hike into the woods with my shovel and destroy these dangerous "berms".

And who are you to say that 99% of people wouldn't pay to play? If that was the case, then why has 95% of the members of WMBA driven 5 hours up to Kingdom trails and PAYED to ride up here?!

"Gov't agency", "business", "overpayed lawnmowers", whatever you want to call them, the more people they get in the woods using the trails in a respectful manner, and paying for parking and facilities means growth. If they are growing, they are happy. Whether we are hiking, biking, horseback riding, unicyling, pogo sticking, segwaying, i don't think they really give a shit!

Here is an article being passed around up here and is specifically being compared to the failure that has occurred in Marin county California... http://tinyurl.com/z4yad6j

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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Chappaqua
You can believe what you want to believe. The man hours to build the Pine Hill trails are exponentially higher than anything around here.

And yeah, WMBA members will pay to travel to MTB destinations, Vermont being one of them. You know what percentage of the Westchester population that is? Probably less than 0.01%, minuscule. The other 99.99% of Westchester residents don't care. Westchester NY is not and never will be a MTB destination.

Again, if you want to do something about it, please do. I and others would be happy to help.


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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:44 pm 
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Location: Mount Kisco
Lipster94 wrote:
In my experience, alot of the trails in Blue have been built by private parties and then grandfathered in to the park. No pre-approvals or anything.
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Not trying to pick you apart, but you're incorrect regarding your thoughts on Blue (above). Of the roughly 23 trails up at Blue, only 4 were built before the WMBA/Parks Dept. relationship was in place to manage trails in the parks. Of the 19, two were approved by the Parks but built before WMBA/CABN (Cortland Area Bicycling Network was the first name for the WMBA) was in place. The remaining 17 were all built pre-approved by the WMBA/Parks Dept.

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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Killington, VT
Evan wrote:
Lipster94 wrote:
In my experience, alot of the trails in Blue have been built by private parties and then grandfathered in to the park. No pre-approvals or anything.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not trying to pick you apart, but you're incorrect regarding your thoughts on Blue (above). Of the roughly 23 trails up at Blue, only 4 were built before the WMBA/Parks Dept. relationship was in place to manage trails in the parks. Of the 19, two were approved by the Parks but built before WMBA/CABN (Cortland Area Bicycling Network was the first name for the WMBA) was in place. The remaining 17 were all built pre-approved by the WMBA/Parks Dept.



Not here to go head to head with anyone.

But i can specifically name (and prove) atleast 4 trails in Blue that were built within the last 7 years that were not "WMBA built". They were planned an constructed by a non-WMBA member and got the official "OK" AFTER 90% of the work was already complete.

Maybe 90% of the trails is a stretch of the truth. But i wouldn't say that more than half have been built and maintained by the WMBA since it's creation.

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 Post subject: Re: New age phenomenon
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Killington, VT
Ti Guy wrote:
You can believe what you want to believe. The man hours to build the Pine Hill trails are exponentially higher than anything around here.

And yeah, WMBA members will pay to travel to MTB destinations, Vermont being one of them. You know what percentage of the Westchester population that is? Probably less than 0.01%, minuscule. The other 99.99% of Westchester residents don't care. Westchester NY is not and never will be a MTB destination.

Again, if you want to do something about it, please do. I and others would be happy to help.


I have! That's part of the reason that i'm up here. :)

I agree that it is not a strong majority of the Westchester population that wants growth in these woods.
But education and the right people can change that.

Unfortunately, neither of those resources seem to be available to you guys at this time. :(


We didn't get started on this to turn Westchester into a global MTB destination. This whole thread has been about whether some of these trails should or should not be modified and if there should be a properly built beginner loop or two. We aren't talking about a multi-million $ project here!

Would it be fair to say that their are 500 cyclists who reside within Westchester county? (Thats roughly 0.05% of Westchester's population)
If everyone chipped in a yearly due of $25 then you would have a yearly budget of $12.5k for this. (VMBA is $50 a year)
On top of "free" volunteer days that is plenty of money for 1 or 2 machine built "flow" trails and the maintenance that comes with.

Think about how much stoke and $$$ is involved in the ski industry. Well, Powdr Corp (Killington, Woodward, Mt. Bachelor, Copper Mtn, etc.) says that for every 1 skier in the US there are 9 cyclists!!! The growth opportunity is there! Why do you think that their has been such a boom in winter resorts building summer activities? (Primarily mountain biking) Because they understand the growth potential!

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